Posted: 19 January 2007 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]
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The Latin, I think, is…

Persuadere alium ex vim regem, persuades alium subjectus ex obedientia.

Certainly not a cure all.

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Posted: 21 January 2007 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Thanks for reminding me that I know bit of Latin, and a great story.

I always enjoy trying to figure out what courses of action would have worked out better for those who suffer.  For the people of Pedis to journey to Anos was my initial inclination, but you reminded me that disavowing him as soon as they were attacked is the course perscribed by my philosophical leanings.  Of course, given Aureum’s rage, they may have had to move anyway - to Aureum where they’d be attacked, or stay put and come under attack by Anos for simply disavowing him.  So what’s the general advice?  Always side with the defender (if you can tell who that is)?

I guess the general advice is be wary of obedience.

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Posted: 26 January 2007 12:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Wonderful comment. Thank you. Yes, if you don’t know a little Latin, the allegory is nonexistent. It becomes simply a peculiar fable.

I thought it was important to emphasize the complacency of the people of Pedis, which is why they don’t immediately run off to Anos. They would have, but this isn’t a story about war, proper, but the lengths people go to stay in the middle.

Pedis is a kind and peaceful people, but they are moved to action only by charity, and also, it seems, only to some gain, even if the gain is simply not having to act or be accountable. They seem more frustrated with being in the middle than angry. Too late do they realize that inaction, on the larger scale, is invariably an action one way or another and that Aureum’s primitive missiles were really not that far off the mark.

The people of Aureum, on the other hand, are swinging as they are falling, swinging as they are rising, and swinging as they are thinking. Some blows hurt their cause, as they almost kill their messenger. I find this to be the nature of under represented peoples or people struggling to overcome injustice/oppression. At first, they only have strength enough to reach Pedis, the farthest from the seat of Anos and the first to suffer by invasion but of Anos, no less. Aureum gets strength enough to be seen as an uprising, eventually rising from their valley, from their crater to confront Anos, but if Anos’s empire would have resisted this rustic army, I doubt they would have made it so far.

You said,
“If you can tell who that is.”

Good point. As it is, if you don’t know Latin, you can’t really understand the allegory. The story sympathises with Pedis, but the allegory does not.

The allegory might call Pedis an ass for carrying the gift horse into Troy, among other ideas.

But how many people care, have the time, or resources to look up the words if they don’t know them? I guess, on large, that is what keeps us stagnate: The desire of man to understand, and his will to act, which might be a shameless plug for the other story about the farmer and the pearl of swine. grin

What does mankind really want? Do we want to imitate animals just because we resemble a mammal? Alas, we will reap what we sow (sorry, the worn phrase).

Sometimes, the details are extraneous. Here, the allegory is not necessary to understand who the ‘bad guys’ are. Just because Aureum is angry, shouldn’t make them unsympathetic. Just because Pedis is charitous (sp) and non-violent, shouldn’t make them unaccountable—they just want Aureum to stop bombing them.

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Posted: 26 January 2007 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Another long response, but thank you again, Dave.

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Posted: 26 January 2007 02:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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I think you have a level of identification with all of mankind that I do not share.  It is to your credit, but perhaps also your consternation, your apparent interest in getting mankind what “it” wants.  I guess I gave that up; it’s a recognizable feeling, built in me, I’m sure, by my parents who raised me to care (care too much, I decided a few years ago, and then my brother agreed with me).  I’ve grown more selfish, but more honest too (I’d have thought I couldn’t be more honest, but then realized that to be completely honest, one must accept and admit one’s selfishness).

Over the last few years of my own writing, I often find myself trying to define the idea of “better” or “good” and it is easy for me to shamelessly point out that I don’t differentiate between that and “what(ever) I want.”  But I don’t think I’ve pointed out nearly enough that part of what I want is for everyone around me to be happy and attribute part of that happiness to me and my efforts.  That’s what most people against selfishness miss: that truly selfish behavior has to benefit everyone whose happiness you enjoy - and it has to benefit them in a way they recognize.

Anyway… I brought it up because of your questions about how many people have the time or care, or what does mankind really want anyway?  I don’t know, and really, I don’t care.  I know what I want and I work hard to get it.  If they have something I want, I’ll see if I can figure out how to please them in a way that motivates them to give it to me.

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Posted: 30 January 2007 02:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Thanks for your comment. It is very honest. I’ve used the modifiers “good” and “better,” perhaps, here or elsewhere, however, the intention is for one to be satisfied of oneself, without controlling another. That is not the way of the world, which is not to say it is not life. Whether it is called “good” or “better” I’m really not concerned with. Mostly, because cynics assume users of these words have an agenda, but what do I have to gain by another’s happiness, someone who knows nothing about me?

I’m not suggesting how to live. I say that if we want peace, we’ll sow peace. If we want freedom, we’ll sow freedom. If we want to understand, we will sow understanding. They are not sown. I take that back. They are not sown more than self-interest. Self-interest is sown best.

Your definition of selfishness is not misunderstood.

I think your definition is the ultimate sense of mankind’s selfishness (self-interest). There is love in that, because love is no cure. All can love. We act by the love of our choosing. Your perspective is very much to your benefit as far as living in this world. I can never say you are wrong. I too have given up on all of these high minded ideas. It is the order man chooses to live by. He will provide for those he cares for, which is why so many suffer (and yet another debate). And I mentioned your perspective in my comment. I said, “who cares?”

Me, if I don’t care, I don’t complain. I don’t do anything. It’s not my concern.

Indeed, there is nothing new under the sun.
The world is boring without war, homicide, famine, disease…
It’s boring without celebrities, self-consciousness, homophobia…
It’s boring without ticker-tape, inflation, waiting for government to
correct ills.

It’s just boring, if we can’t be selfish.

What do I know…I just turn with the Earth…

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Posted: 30 January 2007 02:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I’m re-reading my comment, Dave, and I’m not trying to sound attacking. That is not my intention.

I am focusing on the part that says, “complaining.” I’m talking about myself here. I’m not trying to insinuate anything, and even as I explain, it gets worse.

Ok, I’ll leave it alone now…

Thanks again.

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