Posted: 24 May 2007 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  639
Joined  2005-08-30

I wrote this few months ago, before a single mom started living with my family as part of deal where she could have a more stable situation in return for helping around the house.  Her effective tax rate is negative because of the child credit she gets.  She recently decided to move out because the acting job that gets her work every now and then (and pays very well when she does work) interferes with the schedule she’s supposed to keep to help around the house.  While she does tend to be agreeable, she also argues certain points.  My position on taxation and welfare is one with which she agrees.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 May 2007 01:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

This is my previous comment to the other one by Dave that I’m voting on. 
I just thought I’d reiterate, because last time I used this comment, it shut the whole discussion completely up!
If it happens again, I’m sending this comment to George Bush!
OK here we go:

But hey hey hey, PEOPLE!  There’s no point SHOUTING about this. 

I know, it’s frustrating.  But we must be as cool and calm as possible. 

I’m trying to identify the source of the dispute (or, the sources of some of the disputes) that we might have in discussing Dave’s favorite topic, Taxez. 

The first thing that I would like to do is take everyone horseback riding, on cynical horses.  The horses would just walk around in their delapidated states, their delegated circles, and all of the people from the Conference would realize that, “Hey. I’m sitting on a horse.  A really bored, but patient horse!”

After having to go round and round and round and ROUND, for a few years, on a cynical, bored, but patient horse, the human might finally give up the whole thing and, go, “OK, horsie, I suppose you can have as many oats as you can get.”

Faithful Horse tosses ‘is ‘ead, enthusiastically, and canters up the Way, but when he gets there, he finds that all the food is gone, having been et by the other horses, while he, Faithful Horse, was Doing the Bidding of Loudmouth the Human.  Some other horse got there first.  There oughtta be a Law!!!

I don’t think it happens so often that anyone is really lazy, or doesn’t want to “work”.  People (and animals) need to be encouraged,especially when young—so as to set them up for LATER years, when it gets even worse.  I have been thinking about this a lot since Dave (and I like and respect Dave, a lot), and I gotta tellya…

it’s fun to think! 

So anyway.

julianyway

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 May 2007 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

We have a single mom who is supposed to be helping out around the house in exchange for the guitar we bought for her son last Christmas.  I hate to bitch, but she says she’s too sick, and it’s been months and months.  When I check Facebook (argh, another one of these YA HAVTA DO IT sites)... there she is, posting blogs like the band.  But… she can’t be THAT sick!!???  She’s been seen around town, not looking sick.  Where is our money? 

We were sitting around earlier, pondering this.  We like the kid.  His mom is OK too; it’s just that she doesn’t have “any money” and now that it’s been so long since she borrowed it from us, we’ll never get it back.  It’s a choice between forgiving the debt (which is only $200, but hey) and not being friends anymore.  It could be awkward for the kid, so we are thinking of forgetting the debt, even though it’s not right, dammit.

This isn’t really about taxation, but about how to get rid of people.  If you want to get rid of somebody:  Lend him/her money.  Works like a charm. Lend as little as possible! 

Except we don’t want to get rid of the kid.
His mother would have benefitted from something that she didn’t get.
Whether funded by taxation or what, it would have been good if she’s gotten it.
Shit flows downhill, and one wonders at the degree of one’s obligation to stop it, when you see it coming and you CAN stop it…
But it’s not YOUR shit,
But you like the kid.

We even like his mother. 
Sigh.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 May 2007 02:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  639
Joined  2005-08-30

Shouldn’t the kid be paying for his guitar?  I mean, if you expect to get paid for the guitar - it’s his, not his mom’s right?

I’m gruff and rough and tactless and blunt, and a lot of people are pretty uncomfortable around me because I… heh… I call them idiots when they act like idiots.  I ask the dumb obvious questions they don’t want people thinking about and which most people have the decency not to mention.  So gimme a phone number, I’ll talk to the kid:

“Hey kid, I heard you got a guitar.  Pretty cool, eh?”

“uhhh… yeah.”

“Do you like it?  Are you learning to play and stuff?”

“uhh… yeah… Yeah, I am.”

“Well that’s great.  Jules told me that your mom is supposed to pay for that guitar with work, but your mom’s too sick.  Ya think ya might wanna give her a hand?  I mean, she got herself into this stupid ugly little debt so you could have that guitar, right?”

“Huh?  I dunno what you’re talking about… Who are you now?”

“Just some guy from a website who thinks that if you look for goodness in people, you’ll find that they’re full of it.”

Long pause.

“Heh, I get it.  That’s pretty funny, dude.”

“Yeah, so I think your mom’s problem is that she doesn’t see any downside to kinda forgetting that she owes Jules.  It’s messing with their relationship, y’know?  And it shouldn’t really even be your mom’s debt.  Y’know how they say don’t lend money to your friends unless you don’t them to be your friends any more?”

“uhh… Ok…”

“Well, I don’t think it has to be that way.  Can you prove I’m right, or are you just gonna enjoy that guitar like a fool while your mom and her friends dislike each other more and more?”

“Dude, what are you talking about?”

“Jules thinks the guitar is worth $200 and she’s a bit sore that she gave it up thinking she’d get help around her house and she ain’t gettin’ any.  So I just figured you might be able to set things straight.  Got a job?  Maybe you could pay it off.  Or maybe you could talk to Jules about it?”

“Hmm.  Yeah, it is a pretty cool guitar.  My mom said she bought it for me.”

“Kinda.”

“So you think I should give it back?”

“Yeah, gee, that’s probably why Jules said they like you - ‘cause they have looked for goodness in you and you really are full of it.  Do what you think is right, kid.  Don’t just ignore shit because you can.  You start fixing crap like this and others will start following your good example.  Everyone’s full of it.  Check out my website and you’ll see.  Jules will tell you about it.  And don’t be afraid to tell your mom how you feel about having someone ‘buy’ you a guitar in trade for a friendship.”

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 May 2007 03:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

Ah, Geeze.  Kid is already a good enough kid, with enough of that to deal with.  He doesn’t EVER say, “Dude.”  He helps you carry stuff.  He, Kid himself, has never asked for anything, never whinged, never whined.  He’s a surprisingly wise little boy, soon to be a man, and a friend of ours.  We think that one parent or another, or possibly both (they’re estranged, obviously) have been doing a kind of good job in some way or another, else he wouldn’t be such a good kid.  Kid keeps out of the adult bullshit to the best of his ability.  He loves to play music. 

We love this person for his genuineness and wisdom, and worry about him because he’s only a kid.  I am thinking that the answer is clear: I’m just not sure how to bring it about.  Dammit, we already have a poodle, and are not able to take on a 12-year-old child. 

I guess he’s getting the guitar, and the free guitar lessons.  Why even mention this to you?

I guess I was making a point about his mother.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 May 2007 03:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

The guitar was supposed to be a Christmas present from his mom.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 May 2007 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  639
Joined  2005-08-30

Maybe she should join the conversation?  Or would that… upset her too much - and she *definitely* won’t help you out in return for the guitar?  Maybe this goes back to Star’s question about offending people.  Regardless of the obvious patronization, I like to assume that the claims others make about their own inabilities (their excuses for not doing what they ought to) are true, but I like to do it with a subtle and growing sense of irony, so that at some point, it will be really funny when it breaks…

Ring Ring Ring…

“Hello?”

“Hey, kid’s mom, you feeling any better today?”

“I feel ok.  Why?”

“Well, I know you’ve been too sick to help me out around here and thought you might be feeling better now.”

“Yeah… I’m still kinda tired.”

“Oh, yeah.  Those midnight Internet sessions do that to me too.  Well, call me up when you feel better.”

Click.

Ding dong!

“Oh hi, how are you?”

“Hi Kid’s mom.  I was thinking about you being sick, so I brought you some vitamins.”

“I’m not sick…”

“Oh, but this morning when I called… Well, anyway, I’m just kind of anxious to have you come over and help us out.  But I know how hard it is when you’re trying to get over an illness…”

“Yeah… Ok, well, thanks a lot!  Have a nice evening.”

“We’re planning to clean up the yard.  Do you have plans this evening?”

“Umm…”

Long pause.  Julia smirks a little and eventually bursts out laughing.

“I’m sorry, kid’s mom, if you’re just too tired, you can just watch and feel guity…,” she says jokingly with some derision in her eyes.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 June 2007 01:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

I’m thinking about this.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 June 2007 02:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  639
Joined  2005-08-30

My wife and I had a discussion about what boils down to uncovering well-hidden honesty this morning.  What she brought up is the idea that mothers often feel like they are the only BAD ones who yell and scream at their kids.  But she has been going to a bible study for women and they share these feelings and discover that the feeling is *totally wrong*.  Just about every mother has these moments of what would normally be labelled by the superficial masses as terrible psychological abuse.  But they are normal and kids are forgiving and really, it teaches the kids to take authority with a grain of salt.  We’re all human, after all.

It is a rare pleasure in my life to find myself in a position such as the one I described above, where I am tactful and sly enough to get under the radar of my ill-behaved friend, enough to get the friend to laugh with me - or at least smirk - about that friend’s poor behavior.  Often, the friend quickly turns defensive and mean in retaliation for my breach of the unspoken code, but I, having seen the laughter in my friend’s eyes, am satisfied.  I walk away satisfied.  Eventually, we will laugh together at our past follies.  But it requires that I always be willing to forgive.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2007 02:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

She came over and did some housework today while I was at work.  I hadn’t said anything to her except to talk to her normally one evening when she stopped by.  I mean, not about the Issue. 
There’s no point (I can’t get interested in) being mad at (most) people.  Goodness knows what it’s like in anyone else’s shoes.  Mine aren’t that great either, but there are lots of people who wouldn’t believe me.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2007 02:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  639
Joined  2005-08-30

I love that quote I made up…

says Dave, with no humility whatsoever…

and repeats it again because it’s the best he’s come up with for so many months…

Seek goodness in others and you’ll find that they’re full of it.

grin

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2007 03:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

The “they’re full of it” part kind of resonates, she said, cynically.

Cheers.  wink

Profile
 
 
Posted: 14 November 2007 03:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  639
Joined  2005-08-30

Well, anyway, does your friend still serve as a good example against (for?) the argument I made so long ago?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 November 2007 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Administrator
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  343
Joined  2006-12-13

She, um, was spotted a few days ago in a coffee shop.  She’s cultivating somebody at whose house she’s coincidentally staying.  She hasn’t been over for months and still owes us for the guitar.  Nobody’s even mad at her… nobody has time.  She’s moved on… (sigh).

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 November 2007 03:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  639
Joined  2005-08-30

Bummer.  On one hand, I suppose she never really had the chance to hear the arguments I would have presented, but on the other, does it really matter?  Which side would she come down on?

“Yeah, I think it’s great that we have revenue agents and police-type people to make sure everyone who IS earning some money pays some of into a fund that I can use when I’m hungry.”

OR

“Ok, how about this, I’ll come over to your house and help you out to pay for it, Ok?”

Oh wait, she already made that choice.  I know!  Let’s ask people receiving welfare how much of their check they’re willing to give to the revenue agents and police-type people.

Do you still ever just “talk to her normally”?  You mentioned that she came over once after you did that…

I guess what strikes me is that in personal relationships, we so often correlate debt repayment with getting mad.  I understand the cosmology of that - how it has come about - but I see no teleology in it - the reason.  It seems entirely counterproductive.  I guess my position is that either a person is worth knowing, and they’ll be likely to help you (even moreso when they owe you), or they are not worth knowing, and friendly encouragement to keep up their end of a bargain will slowly drive them away.  But then if we “forgive and forget” then both effects are lost.  Perhaps I am too privileged because I feel that when I am owed a debt, repayment generally benefits the debtor more than it benefits me (because it strengthens our relationship).

Profile
 
 
   
 
 
‹‹ Old Love Rescue      Reflection ››