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Tuesday, November 20, 2007

I Can’t Live Without…

Category: Poetry/Lyrics
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  • I suppose that for some, the grass is always greener on the other side.  But I think that if you find those rare people who expect only what they pay for, love and freedom can coexist.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/21  at  12:23 PM
  • Yes Dave, and as you said very rarely. This is perhaps because both love and freedom are so powerful in their nature that normally they would not let each other rule the human mind. They are sort of ‘possessions’. But I agree that for a very rare number of people, these two may live as friends rather than foes in the same person.
    Thanks!

    Posted by Prometheus  on  11/22  at  12:37 AM
  • I’m wondering where unconditional love fits in here.  Parents (theoretically) have unconditional love for their kids, don’t they?  Does that make them less free?  Would it be love if it weren’t free?  Does anybody have to be prepared to PAY for unconditional love?  Or is unconditional love just a myth?

    Just ruminating about the concepts here…

    Posted by julianyway  on  11/22  at  03:40 PM
  • Check out the Discuss link: http://www.litmocracy.com/forums/viewthread/258

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/22  at  07:53 PM
  • Julian, you have strummed a very debatable cord. I have always had have serious doubts about ‘unconditional love’. I think no one, not even one’s parents love without expecting something (consciously or unconsciously). AS far as I have read, only the mother shows some selfless love in the early days of the child. But in the broad sense love always limits one’s freedom to some degree, particularly the freedom to be oneself. The mother for instance is given to the care of the child, heedless to her own needs (although she is just protecting her genes for furthering her existence, according to sociobiology). I think she is not just doing it but she must do it because love does not leave her with a choice. My perspective is not a very cheerful one, you may see. But it is an angle from which I dare to look at things.

    Posted by Prometheus  on  11/23  at  12:50 AM
  • There is one thing that needs attention in my poem. It is manifestly addressed to one’s object of romantic love and the love presented here is of an obssessive kind (which romantic love often is)that limits one’s freedom enormously. However, I would proclaim that love and other emotions in general limits one’s freedom of choice.

    Posted by Prometheus  on  11/23  at  01:00 AM
  • I’m Julia actually.  Anyway.  smile

    If you are such that you have no choice at all, can’t possibly do otherwise, as a result of your genetic make-up, are you then therefore not free to be yourself?  Does it make sense to talk about “being oneself” when you’re talking about someone whose very nature dictates inexorably what s/he’s going to do?

    Ha ha, free will vs. determinism, one of the best and most annoying topics!!!  (Studied this.  Never got anywhere.)

    Posted by julianyway  on  11/23  at  08:38 PM
  • Yes Julia! Great to get back to this determinism vs. freedom discussion. The angle you took is very much valid. If each and every act of us helplessly depends on biological calls, there is no freedom. What we are talking here is a situation in which you are obviously confronted with 2 choices: love, which you have sensed to be a possible threat to your egoistic self (the urge to be your own master) and no-love (in which case you are more your master). Love is tempting you. Biologically, in the evolutionary context, one is supposed to follow love. But refraining from love in this situation is clearly not the call of biology. You may call it an outcome of the abnormal ‘genetic make-up’. If it could be proved scientifically that this decision of not following love was helplessly influenced by one’s biology, freedom was an illusion. If no scientific evidence is available, we can say that the poet has won his freedom. Please feel free to discuss it.

    Posted by Prometheus  on  11/24  at  01:22 AM
  • Let me ask you this:

    Do you think and act as if you have free will, or more as if you’re predetermined?  Do you feel that you have any influence over which one your actions reflect?

    And another fun game to play:  Let’s Pretend!

    Let’s pretend that you control something.  Let’s call it A and B - and you control whether it’s A or B.  If everyone thinks that you control whether it’s A or B, then you will face some pressure from those who want it to be the way you didn’t make it.  However, if you can fool everyone into thinking that you don’t control it, then you’ll be under somewhat less pressure.  But then you might wonder (if you believe you have a choice about fooling them, and you are wise) if it might be better to feel that pressure.  I guess that comes down to whether you think the pressure from others would make your life better or worse.

    Lord I pray that others may have the courage to change what they can improve, the knowledge to recognize what they cannot change, and the wisdom to distinguish between the two.  For me?  I just pray to regurgitate the fruit that gave me knowledge of good and evil so that I may once again be clean in your eyes.  Ahh blissful ignorance, why have you left me?  Just kidding.  I pray for the courage and wisdom too wink  Lord, you know what wink means, right?  Amen.

    Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)  on  11/24  at  11:34 PM
  • Dave?  Did you go back to that church?

    Not that there’d be anything necessarily wrong with that.  In fact it could be great. 

    See, now you’re distracting me from Free Will.  I knew, GOD knew, Allah knew, the Buddah knew, the poodle knew, that it was destined to happen!!!  (Really?) (I’ve always liked God.  I don’t care what you call Him/Her/It.)(Sorry, you’re a nice guy.  You’re going to find GAWD somehow.  I have no advice.  I know you’ll be fine.) 

    OK so: now the question is, whether you are going to ... OK, let me try this.  We have A and B.  I’m completely in charge.  Just to give this some Life, let’s call A:  “Getting a Donkey” and B:  “Getting an Emu”. 

    I, per your previous remarks, control whether it’s a donkey or an emu. NEXT?

    “If everyone thinks that you control whether it’s A or B, then you will face some pressure from those who want it to be the way you didn’t make it.”

    Whoa, I have no idea what you’re talking about. 
    Let’s try this.  If everyone thinks I control whether it’s a donkey or an emu, then I will face some pressure from the people who want it to be the way I didn’t make it.

    OK. Let’s face it. I prefer donkeys. 

    If everyone thinks I can have a donkey instead of an emu, I will face pressure from the emu-lovers if I pick a donkey? 

    OK, we got that. 

    <<However, if you can fool everyone into thinking that you don’t control it, then you’ll be under somewhat less pressure.>>

    So you’re saying, if I tell everyone I have no choice between an emu and a donkey, they won’t be as mad at me… or at least the emu-lovers won’t?

    “But then you might wonder (if you believe you have a choice about fooling them, and you are wise) if it might be better to feel that pressure.”

    AHA!  I think I might have found the place where we are still talking about FREE WILL!  But maybe not.  WHAT???  Why would I want to fool these people?  I just have this simple choice between an emu and an donkey, and I want the donkey.  I mean, there’s an obvious sense in which I could fool people into thinking I wanted an emu, but I have completely kiboshed that now, by posting this.  Why would anyone believe I want an emu, when it is clearly obvious that I want a donkey? 

    <<I guess that comes down to whether you think the pressure from others would make your life better or worse.>>

    This discussion about Free Will and Determinism has made my life relatively cheery.  I am still unclear on the ultimate resolution to this Problem that has plagued us all (including Christians) for ages and ages and ages.  Free Will and Determinism is my Favorite Topic that No One Has Fixed. 

    Dave’s idea, that it all comes down to whether pressure from others would make your life better or worse, is kind of, well, I don’t like to say “CUTE”, but, not to say “CUTE”, it’s cute.  He might very well be right. 

    I am bamboozled by the Free Will versus Determinism issue, and am waiting for enough “Pressure from Others” to help me, one way or the other. 

    Amen?

    I know that good things are true.

    Posted by julianyway  on  11/28  at  04:33 AM
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