Who are we?
In this ever changing life, how can I be true to my roots while respecting others?

You used “condone” where I think you meant “condemn”.  Their meanings are kind of opposite. Or maybe I’m just an idiot…

“Understand that speaking of one’s belief does not condone others.”

I think you meant:

“Understand that speaking of one’s belief does not condemn others.” But it can, right?  It really depends on what you say.  If you really believe that those not in the fold are condemned, and you say so, then isn’t that a condemnation?

After puzzling over this and writing a couple thousand words about it, I decided that I better stick with a simple answer.  Staying true to your roots doesn’t show others a lack of respect, it offends them (sometimes).  Respect, for me, means taking a second look instead of writing something off.  Damaging other creatures and destroying valuable things are bad behaviors.  Offending people is not.  I think that the kind of people that get offended by behaviors consistent with the roots of others SHOULD be offended.  It is costly to offend them so, but if you’re willing to pay the cost, you will help improve things.  If you can offend people by telling them “Merry Christmas” or “In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful” then by all means, go for it.  It teaches people to be more resilient.  It gives them a chance to take a second look at your roots.  The lack of respect is in the offended people, not the offender.

Um, yes, you’re right. Although ‘condemn’ is a bit strong, so I changed it to ‘Understand that speaking of one’s beliefs does not mean we do not respect those of others’. Thanks for catching that.

And I think this changes things considerably, because what I meant to say was that speaking of my beliefs does not condemn the BELIEFS of others, rather than condemn the OTHERS (as in people). And this means that if I respect their beliefs, then I do not consider them condemned because they do not believe in the same things as me.

I agree with what you’re saying about destruction and offending others. What I was getting at is that our society is asking me to hide my beliefs in favour of respecting those of others. I sometimes feel that we make a big deal of other religions while hiding our own, just to show what - respect? Acceptance?

I’m not sure I’d have much respect for a country who would quiet their beliefs on account of little old me who enters their country. I would be much more enclined to respect them if they carried on with their lives proudly, while allowing me to do the same. I would love to hear of their special holidays, and partake in them if I were invited. Most people who follow a different religion than me told me they felt the same about Christmas and Easter. So why does our government ask us not to decorate the office with Christmas-related things? So that those who are of a different religion will not feel excluded.

But why should they, if they are also free to follow their beliefs?

You’re tapping my cynicism.

So why does our government ask us not to decorate the office with Christmas-related things? So that those who are of a different religion will not feel excluded.

But why should they, if they are also free to follow their beliefs?

I think that much of what government does is an attempt to increase the number of voters who turn out for a particular party or individual.  I’m doing the calculation in my head: Of those who disagree with the hiding of Christmas, very few will refuse to vote for the government promoting the policy.  The loss is minimal.  Of those who feel strongly about their non-Christian religion, a few will appreciate the gesture.  The gain is small, but probably more than the loss.  Hence the policy action.

I don’t think any one person does this calculation.  It’s more just the outcome of throwing ideas out there about how to fix things and seeing what sticks because of the group dynamics in the legislature, and the way they vote.  I can’t blame the individuals.  Did you ever hear this one:  The people had to vote on what to do with an alleged criminal.  They could vote to FREE him, BANISH him, or KILL him.  During the debates, the BANISHers found themselves trying to argue with everyone but being ignored.  Perceiving that they had no chance to win, they chose a more extreme side.  Those who wanted an extreme did not bother with the BANISHers because they weren’t the enemy.  This is the main reason that Litmocracy asks voters to rank submissions against each other rather than simply choosing their favorite.

Oh, woe is me.  You’re tapping my cynicism too.
Dave is probably right. 
Still, this—

“So why does our government ask us not to decorate the office with Christmas-related things? So that those who are of a different religion will not feel excluded.
But why should they, if they are also free to follow their beliefs?” --

...should be brought to people’s attention.  A little light in a dark room.

Well of course I’m tapping cynisim, I wrote in MindChange...

Dave is most certainly right, only I am too. Different ways of approaching the same subject I’m afraid…

julianyway - 19 March 2007 09:04 PM

Oh, woe is me.  You’re tapping my cynicism too.
“So why does our government ask us not to decorate the office with Christmas-related things? So that those who are of a different religion will not feel excluded.
But why should they, if they are also free to follow their beliefs?” --

...should be brought to people’s attention.  A little light in a dark room.

Good point.  So, how about:

Do you feel excluded when others wish you benefits from spirituality or religion you think is bunk or that you don’t agree with?  Do you notice when others act like expressing ones beliefs would be bad?  While inventing these questions, I am realizing that this problem is much larger than I thought.  This isn’t just about beliefs or religion or spirituality.  This is about being blunt and honest with the fact that you might disagree with someone.

They have no legal right to know that you disagree.  You are not legally obligated to let them know that you disagree.  If both of you are immature jackasses, then it’s probably best not to bring it up.  That’s the point of most laws, right - to protect us from immature jackasses?  But if either of you has some maturity, then identifying the fact that you hold different beliefs or opinions, and sharing and explaining them to each other if and when time permits will probably create happiness.  No, you don’t have to wish people Merry Christmas if you don’t want to, but it might lead to a nice exposè (sorry couldn’t find the right accent… Star - help?) on how and why the differences exist, and paradoxically, stronger relationships.  Can someone write a story about that?

I think the problem is bigger than not wanting to wish someone a Merry Christmas.

I do want to wish a Merry Christmas to people, regardless of whether or not they celebrate it.

My intention in wishing someone a happy whatever is to please them, or be nice to them, or wish them well – regardless of what I’m wishing them. If they don’t celebrate a particular holiday, ‘mature’ people should understand my motivation and be pleased with my action, instead of being insulted.

I don’t have this problem with friends. One, because I can wish them a happy-any-holiday-they-celebrate and two, because my friends would not see offence in me wishing them a happy-any-holiday-I-celebrate. They wouldn’t feel like I don’t respect them enough to consider that maybe they don’t celebrate the same thing as me. They would simply see my wish for what it is – a genuine desire from me to them to be happy, or to have happy times.

The problem I see is this ‘ill-at-ease’ feeling that grabs me in the office, or with people I don’t know, that fear of being politically incorrect because I ventured into religious grounds that are, that have become in the last few years, almost taboo. And it’s not just religion, either. It’s racial and ethnic background, it’s equality in the sexes, it’s social rank. It’s way too many things in a day that I feel compelled to tiptoe around. I shouldn’t get this feeling, I shouldn’t even have to consider whether it is proper or not to wish happiness to someone based on my knowledge and beliefs.

I say ‘Good morning’, and ‘Happy Monday’, and ‘have a good night’ on a regular basis. My intention is the same as when I say ‘Merry Christmas’. No one gets offended though – probably because everyone has a Monday. But if I wish someone a good weekend and they happen to work on the weekend, they will react – ‘well maybe for you, but I have to work’.

Our world has grown selfish. And that’s the bottom line. It’s all about me, me, me. If I wish someone a good weekend and they’re working, they assume that I was really thinking of the good weekend I was going to have, and they’re jealous. They think I’m rubbing it in. Is it not possible that I simply wish for them to be safe, and happy, and overall well over the weekend, whether they work or not? Does it not occur to them that I may not have known what their weekend was like, and that my intentions were honest?

Seriously, it’s a sad world that doesn’t recognize good intentions in their purest and simplest form.

Oh and Dave...this is the accent you’re looking for: é (Alt+130)

Wow, that was all truey.  Seriously.

Keep in mind that most people are A-OK, okay?  Because they are.  I do tech support all day, and there are 10% of people who are cranky, and only 3% incorrigibles, when I get through with them.  Most Americans, anyway (my clientelle) are hilarious, and willing to be friends. 

I think everyone just wants to feel a little respected, and humored.  I know that that’s enough to placate ME.  And if you do it, you find that you can’t do it without respecting and humoring the other person in question.

I hate to sound New Age, at this Old Age, but I think the world is getting smaller, and that people are starting to realize, when given a polite chance, that we have all been talking about the same Thing, all along.  Don’t mind me, I have an innocent poodle puppy asleep on my lap.

Julianyway,

thank you.

thank you so much.

You know, you’re right. Most people are A-Okay. And that’s a refreshing thought indeed.

What’s sad is that most A-Okay people simply follow along because they just want everybody to get along. Which is honourable, but which also means that whoever is setting this mindset has them almost automatically enlisted as followers. And that in turns causes tiptoing.

But you know what? That refreshing post of yours just made it ok. Because however people act, most of them are A-Okay.

So my smiles and winks do not go unnoticed.

So my good intentions do get through to most of them.

And that makes me feel good

Oh...and the fat-and-naive kitty sleeping on my lap has nothing to do with my current state of mind...LOL

Perhaps one’s good intentions get through best to those who are strangers on the phone, said Julie crankily, having just been deluged with a bunch of company that just wanted to talk about itself, at the expense of what *I* wanted to do (alone) this evening.  (It never ceases to amaze me, how happy people are to shout each other down.  Don’t they realize that if they have to shout, the other person is NOT LISTENING?  Is shouting going to HELP?  No.  Sigh.)

Now I’m too tired and cranky from listening to people shout at each other to do anything useful, so have come tottering over to Litmocracy, where the people actually LISTEN to other people!  Hullo?  Hullo?

Yay!  After all the guests leave, the cats and the dog come over to (you guessed it) ME, for some attention.  Argh.
But they’re sitting peacefully now.  We’re all relieved. 

I’m not always bitter and cynical.  I am not always bitter and cynical.  I am not always bitter and cynical!

Thanks, StarLizard, for noticing!

So your intentions were good in letting them shout.
You wanted them to have a good time.

Julianyway...you’re A-Okay.